Porting and blowdown

Here's my thoughts... Porting increases the TORQUE in the ENTIRE power band... Period!!! Yes there is wild porting that only comes on like a light switch in the upper rpm range. I get that. However, a good solid desert port/trail port, call it what you want, is going to do very nice things! A re-chambered head improves this even more by producing BETTER COMBUSTION, or in other words a more complete burn of the air fuel mix. I personally wouldn't waste my time learning better jetting techniques until that engine has a re-chambered "Hemi" head of around 19cc - 23cc's and squish set between .030 - .045 . If your using a stock head, your basically (in my opinion) wasting your time trying to jet that ported cylinder. All or nothing is what I'm saying. I would also highly recommend matching the transfer ports to the engine case. There's noticeable power you can pick up there too, and can be accomplished with the engine assembled and in the frame. I would suggest stop splitting hairs with this porting. It sounds to me that your on the right track! A degree wheel is an indispensable tool, however remember that a lot of old school porting uses measurements based upon the top deck of a cylinder. This has been done for a long, long time and works very well. Don't get into splitting hairs too much, or you will become frustrated very quickly.
You can dyno an engine all you want to see what rpm range gives the most torque, most top end scream, etc , but in my opinion it is what it is, because in the real world, when you have that engine back together and your riding that blaster, your not thinking... "Am I in that rpm that the dyno said it was making the most power?". It doesn't happen. Your rolling on that throttle and seeing what it can do. The characteristics of HOW that engine runs while your riding it will become readily apparent while you riding it. There are too many variables, tire size, traction (tire slip on the terrain), gearing, jetting, etc , etc , etc , that will make all those numbers on paper irrelevant. This is why I suggested the porting templates. you don't have to use them, but you can learn from them. Besides, I we don't ride our blasters on dyno drive rollers. At least I don't. Dyno's also won't tell you how fast you will go around a track. A dyno is a tool, and that's it! It is by no means "the final word". That's bullshit.
Concentrate on a piston that is PROPERLY fitted to a round. strait bore with no taper and you will go far. So will your engine.
I have come to that conclusion as well as far a calling it good on the porting, I boxed it up last night. Hopefully I will get off work in time to get that bad boy out to KOR who I am entrusting the properly fitted bore and choice of rechamber to as this has always been my plan.
I really don't think I stand to learn much more until I get that bad boy together, put some hours on it ,an work from there.
I have run back and forth over this shape or that a mm or two here or there , and it looks like I couldn't do any worse than Yamaha did as far as power goes. But it's hard to just stop and say ok I am done as I figure it could always be better.

I agree with your thoughts on the dyno it is a great tool to help measure small changes, and compare changes made by this mod or that. But at the end of the day it all comes down to the owner / rider and if it feels good to them.

Thanks again
Deebee
 
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Any photos of your work? Please post them. The head re-chambering makes a huge difference, as well as the higher compression!
I have some pics in an album called it first port job at 90%.
Since then I smoothed the intake between the main and boost ports, smoothed and took some 600 grit wet to the exhaust port there are still a few little divots that I might 120 out into a smooth low spot before I finish with 800 or 1000 grit . I also went in with a stubby light file with the handle bent at a 90 and fixed the transfers a little.

I didn't take any pics of the cases but I placed them on the bottom of the cylinder one half at a time and scribes a line on the overlap. Lighting is bad but here is one of the edges that has the most overlap removed.
IMAG0828.jpg

I imagine that by now there might be a need to take a little off the side wall of the transfer cutouts . But that will have wait or I might guess and take .020" off down each side.

That's about all I got , I think Ken will be doing the chamfering when he bores it , I am going give him a call when I actually get the box in he mail. Hopefully tomorrow.
I just checked the web site says port and hone $55 on he price list. And under cylinder boring is says bore ,hone, chamfer,remove gasket material $65.
For the difference I am absolutely gonna have my ports chamfered by a pro.
 
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Just a quick update I checked online and there are three or four race shops around that likely have engine dynos, one for sure.
I haven't talked to any of them though. The one dyno I have seen looked tlike the rollers would work for a blaster. Will a typical car engine dyno produce reasonable results for an atv?
 
Just a quick update I checked online and there are three or four race shops around that likely have engine dynos, one for sure.
I haven't talked to any of them though. The one dyno I have seen looked tlike the rollers would work for a blaster. Will a typical car engine dyno produce reasonable results for an atv?
I don't think it can be done on a typical car dyno, not sure of it anyways.
There are dyno's out there specially made for atv's, trike's, karts, side by sides etc.
Dynojet for example, look them up.;)
 
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Dyno time is more for curiosities sake anyhow, Its not a major concern being as I ported to somewhere between agresive trail and MX numbers my concern isn't with will it make power , I am more worried about keeping Temps down, detonation, etc. I will propably buy some avgas and mix it 1 gallon av to 4 gal 93 pump gas. I have considered c12 but for the cost and considering I am only going to be running 20% just to bring up the October a couple points (around 95) and people have has good results running straight avgas. .... I know when my local sunoco used to sell 100 octane race gas it was only $4 or $5 a gallon, but no-one nearby carries it.

I also ran across some advice which is to run one step up in octane, in my case that would be 50/50 93/avgas, while jetting to help prevent detonation if you end up lean. This makes good sense to me of course you have to consider it might mess with the jetting a little but from my reading. straight avgas versus straight c12 makes a difference of maybe one or two sizes on the main jet.
 
Get that head re-chambered, and you won't have to worry about ANY aviation fuel. With a high compression re-chambered head you will be able to run pump gas with zero detonation. This I know.
Your port work is a great start. Thanks for the photos. It is however, not very close to the porting templates. You have a way to go to get to a "aggressive trail" port. The beauty is that you have plenty of room to step it up. This is how you learn, and your doing great! Remember that its only a few nuts and bolts to yank that cylinder off, and try the next step. That's the fun part. Just be sure to take notes.
 
Get that head re-chambered, and you won't have to worry about ANY aviation fuel. With a high compression re-chambered head you will be able to run pump gas with zero detonation. This I know.
Your port work is a great start. Thanks for the photos. It is however, not very close to the porting templates. You have a way to go to get to a "aggressive trail" port. The beauty is that you have plenty of room to step it up. This is how you learn, and your doing great! Remember that its only a few nuts and bolts to yank that cylinder off, and try the next step. That's the fun part. Just be sure to take notes.

I realize that my port time area at %50 open by degrees will be a little lower than others because I retained a close to stock curve at the top of the exhaist port and due to the limitations of my tool I was only able to widen so far , anyhow I might have went a bit wider at top to give it a better shape, but it was my intention to limit the initial hit of the power band somewhat, as well as preserve ring life, as my youngins will be learning on it.
Purely based on timing alone (I forget the numbers) it falls between the porting styles i mentioned, might call it a muted mx port or maybe a tame xc port.
I guess it would be similar to throwing a cam in a 4 stroke without using high ratio rockers, or bigger valves.
I will really never know unless, I dyno it and compare it to other dyno graphs, because I really don't have any other blasters to ride and compare it to.

I am getting my bore, chamfering and head rechambering done by Ken O'Connor, which reports and experience tell me that, he is a really good dude, who takes pride in his work and really puts his best into jobs large snd small.

My imagination say it will run similar to one of the more sedate 250 bikes from just before the power valve era, with a little lower power to weight ratio of course. That is my hopes anyhow, a strong fat midrange, with a good wide powerband that comes on predictably and some what smoothly. Of course they say "wish in one hand, shat in the other", in this case meaning I wish it would run this way or that ,but absolutley don't have the experience, knowledge or skill to produce such an effect at will. Unless I am really lucky or my hand was somehow blessed with divine guidance while cutting, I wouldn't be surprised to have at least one hitch or funny spot in the band where it gets out of wack due to poor scavenging, excessive boost port blow thru at a certain rpm, transfer port aim that no longer matches the proper rpm range, etc ,,etc etc.

By the time i put it the box to ship,
the exhaust was brought up by 1.5mm and widened by around 2.5mm total
transfers were raised by: primary .8mm, secondary .2mm and widened a negligible amount, (sleeve was cut with flame tip which gouged a small groove in the aluminum, and aluminum was hand matched as well as possible)
boost port was raised .5mm + a degree or so (really hard to measure in that small of an incriment with such a steep angle)
intake windows ended up a about .5mm taller and slightly ( <.25mm)wider than in the %90 pictures.
I also made the area below the boost port into a flat underoo (maybe tight whittie or bikini brief) shaped area with an angle nearly as steep as the boost port itself.

I am super stoked to get it back together and running, and can't wait to see how it runs, I won't be dissapointed if it only picks up a couple horse, but from what I have heard just cleaning up the casting flaws, and going 1mm on the exhaust port, combined with a rechambered head is worth at least 5-8 horse over stock which with an open airbox and a toomey is said to be 20.3 horse which puts it at 26 to 28 horse at the wheels,which is really plenty. Only time will tell but if all goes well I am figuring to be on the high side of that.
If there are any really funny spots I should be able to figure out (with the forums help) what went wrong what to cut or what to put back if I can.
 
After reading through this whole thread, you have done something many of us are either affraid to try, or just can't figure out.

Good job, and I can't wait to hear about the end results.
 
I appreciate the vote of confidence, I feel like it should run really well, and have my fingers crossed for some really good controllable power. I starting by watching Ken's video series on home porting which gave a solid base to start with, and "sparked the fuel in my minds cylinder".
From there I found and read some of the more popular if somewhat dated texts, touched on and poured over almost everything I could find on the web, looking into not only vintage air cooled motor info, but modern and current tricks and methods as well. I literally spent 40 hours or more just reading, studying and working the math on paper with the help of my tablets scientific calculator.
The only thing I didn't do that i would have liked to was spent about $30, on two pieces of software one which allowed you to take your port map, scan it in and outline each port as well as enter horizontal and vertical pot angles. It takes that info and gives you all of the important numbers, timing duration, area, time area calculations.
The second can figure the ideal time areas for each port type given a target rpm, it can calculate expected peak power and torque ranges. Supposed to be good software, not as good as MOTA or some of the funded commercial softwares, but usable.
Ultimately If I didn't feel like I had done all I could tomasure relativel success I would still be studying, cutting, filing, sanding, etc.

My top end arrived at KOR friday, and apparently is scheduled to ship out first part of next week. :eek: Talk about service, everywhere I have ever taken anything similar before. The turn around time was measured in weeks or months, not days or hours. Even when I took my I-4 ford escort head to be planed, I drove an hour and a half to get there at 8am when he opened planning to take it home with me when he was done. I was told to give him a week or two. :mad:. I have heard that Ken has good turn around time, but this is above and beyond, not sure if I hit it at the right time or if this is the norm for Ken's shop, but I am certainly impressed.

Who ever said , " good, fast or inexpensive, you may only choose two" obviously forgot to whisper this in Mr. Ken O'Connor's ear. :D
 
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Your parts shipped today. I didn't paint the head because of all of the fancy work your kid did to it.


Wow that is the fastest turn around time I have ever seen, I have had oil changes that took longer, if it runs half as fast as you work, I will have it made.
Sounds like everything went well, I was worried about .020" not being enough to clean it all up.

My little buddy will be happy his work survived, I would never tell him but I figure it will oxidize and be less noticable soon enough.
Its all good tho I will have to post pics of his handy work that will really make him happy. I thought a smooth clean edge was plenty but we had alot of fun and it kept him from cutting on the spare cylinder in the corner.




Thanks for the heads up
 
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Listen to Joe (and Ken of course) Follow Joe's old threads where he experimented with one thing at a time to find what works and what doesn't. He did a cylinder and a couple heads up for my son and they work WELL! He has experimented with chamber shape enough to know what works. Trust his advice.
1) a re-chambered "hemi" head is the start in my book. Set squish at 1mm
2) a good pipe, anything will work better than stock for more rpm and power
3) open up the airbox intake and run a good filter.
4) jet your stock carb properly with a plug chop
This should get you near 30 hp.
5) carefully take 1mm only from the roof of your exhaust port.
engine will now rev like a MX and probably see you past 30hp
6) intake is debatable, Joe cuts them carefully, I like to fill them, both work.
I feel the filling improves mid-range power and jetting consistency, but his work hard too!

252249_10151325140485803_804954678_n.jpg


The red shows where the epoxy goes, the reed stops are left off because the epoxy does the job now.

266023_10151362954045803_1391383925_o.jpg


Joe did this cut-away several years ago, the red is photoshopped in.

Steve
 
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Kinda lost me on how you measured from the rings for timing, but whatever works for you.

Most all measurements when dealing with the rotation of the crankshaft are relative to Top Dead Center, over time the rings not the piston wear the cylinder and leave a definite transition at the top if the stroke. But since when porting, we are looking for where the top of the piston edge is located, not the top of the rings. To solve this you simply add the distance from the top of the rings to the top of the piston edge. This let's you know where the top edge of the piston is located at TDC.
Once you know how far it is from TDC at the top of the rings to the cylinder deck, and how far it is from the top of the rings to the top of the piston. We can find the difference between true TDC (piston top edge) and the cylinder deck.

When you calculate piston position it always gives you XXmm below TDC, so if you know TDC is .64mm below the cylinder deck, you can simply add .64mm to the measurement the program gives you and measure from the cylinder deck.

The reason I used the groove in the cylinder worn by the top of the rings is it was the only indication of TDC I had, once I added the distance from the top of the rings to the top edge of the piston I had true top dead center, and found it using only the worn cylinder itself.
 
ITS ALIVE, AND I LIKE IT. Every spark is marked by a nice strong pop, sounds pretry wicked. Idling Doesnt sound like di,di,di,di,di,poomp,di,di,di,poomp anymore.
Instead it sounds more like PAAP,PAAP,PAAP,POP,PAAP at idle, it has a nice roar when revved, (at least when you push the throttle to that one spot where it feeds in the right mixture.

It passed a leak down 5 mins at 5 psi, then 5 more at 7 psi, with a little 2 stroke oil sitting on the edge of the piston. Where is the wipe the sweat from your brow smiley when you need it.

Fresh gas, and plug went in and first thing that happened was I found out the hard way that the float height wasnt high enough, as the carb was leaking a bit from the over flow, made a quick and dirty float adjustment and went too far, so I will have to fix it right come daylight.
Kicked it over and it was actually hard to kick, lots more compression. When it come to life, it sounded pretty mean, despite the carb being off. I think it will be ok on the 28mm miKuni with a 35 pilot, needle is rich at the moment but the needle jet is a little bigger than stock so that is no surprise.


I am afraid it might be a bit hard to jet. I also feel like at low rpm/velocity the boost port is a little tall to keep to its intended direction and instead allows a good amount of charge to blow right out into the oncoming charge preventing good scavenging, I also think I might have not helped myself any by staggering the transfers, and their might be another little issue or two.

I will just have to wait until I get the rest of my parts that are already ordered, and hopefully get a pair of 20 x 8 tires as well.
A place about 30 mins from here sells tires around that size for $130 a pair, be it MX treaded tires, Kenda's with a pattern like the stock honda tires, or stockish knobbies. I think they bought out a small warehouse full of tires for cheap...they ship nationwide for like $10 or so a tire. I will have to get the info in case anyone is interested, I haven't dealt with them yet so I can't comment on that.

It seems to straighten out and really sync up around 4 grand, but it's hard to really tell much with the carb out of whack.

When I get up in the morning I am going to reset the float height to the tall side (lower fuel level) of specs because when I had it set to the short end of the specs the fuel level was just a tiny bit high and was loosing fuel drop wise out the overflow.
Once I do that, and lean the needle out a clip, I feel like it will be close enough to put another quick cycle or two on it.

The worst part is I am waiting on and HD clutch kit, chain and a 41 tooth sprocket (front is new 14t) as well as a +2 swingarm extension.
I still have the old clutch in it, but the old rear sprocket and chain are hanging on the wall and the left tire and carrier are barely bolted up. So I really can't do much atm. I got a feeling I will end up putting the old stuff back on tomorrow, as soon as I get the carb lined out.

If it pulls half as good as it sounds, it should be a strong motor
 
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