I'm going back to the yamaha "auto lube" oil injection! Why? Because it works!!!

[sicivicdude]

I'm actually kind of confused about the statement that when you go out on long rides, you don't have to worry because the tank holds like 6 gas tanks worth of oil.

If you have room to pack regular gas, you have room to pack premixed gas too. Throw a 5 gallon jug of premix in the back of whatever UTV or jeep is carrying the fuel anyway. Let's face it, the 4 ounces of oil per gallon isn't taking up enough room to make any range difference at all if you're counting the volume of gasoline one can carry (straight versus premixed).

Back to my original statement, to each his own. If you like the oil injection system, great. I like premixing myself and will continue to do so.

 

[joeak47]

I’m going to side with Joe on this one. I’ve done a ton of Blaster engines and I can tell you this. I’ve NEVER pulled one apart and seen the drive gear damaged, worn, or broken. Can the pump or any of the components fail? Yup. The possibility is there but chances are the reeds, piston or crankshaft will fail long before the auto-lube system will and that’s what will leave you stranded in the woods. I don’t run the system on my quad or most of my builds. I don’t mind mixing my fuel and oil. The elimination of the system leaves zero chance that the engine will fail due to lack of 2 stroke oil unless the rider forgets to mix it with the fuel. The elimination of the pump costs from $0 - $20 depending on how you do it. Let’s face it. We all love to do mods and any improvement we can make for that amount of money is hard to resist. Kudos to you Joe for having the sack to suggest the unpopular opinion.

There you go people...Strait from the Two Stroke GURU himself !!!

Rememer this...
The reason for me removing my oil injection was because I wanted to experiment with castor oil,and the other high quality two stroke oils that are out there on the market,and to experiment with different fuel to oil ratios. I wanted to do this because I kept reading and hearing that "Pre-mixed fuels" make more POWER than an "Oil injected" engine can.
Do you know what I found out? That rumor/myth was a COMPLETE LIE!
The sad part is that most people believe this kind of crap. They hear it from a friend,or the guy down the street,or read it in a forum,or what ever.

I've never been the kind of guy that "keeps up with the Jones's",or "Does it because everybody else does". Piss on that! I check the validity of things and what people say and do. I'm a "Realist",and I'm a "Thinker",and I think outside the box!
Believe me it wasn't cheap to do this. As we all know,the good oil isn't cheap when you have to go purchase it,and also many different kinds. I learned alot from all the oils,and oil to fuel ratios,and have changed more main jets in the last few months than any of you have in your life time.

Just for the record, I in no way removed my factory stock Yamaha "Auto Lube" oil injection systen because I was "Worried" about it failing in any way!!!. I was not,or am I now, in the slightest,... "Worried" about ANY component of the oil injection system!!!

I can't emphasize it enough that I am not "Worried" or "Even think about" the failure of any of the following components...
#1 Oil injection pump
#2 Plastic (Delrin,or Nylon) drive gear
#3 Rigid oil "Supply" line
#4 Rigid oil "Delivery" line
#5 Oil supply tank
#6 Oil sensor (tattle tale)
#7 Oil light
#8 Oil line retention clips
#9 Oil line retention cuffs
#10 Oil fill cap



I'm still am waiting to "see" proof of all the "Failed" components from this system that everybody says happens all the time. Good luck with that!

I'm always hearing about the "delrin drive gear" breaking. Yeah right.
I'm always hearing about the "injection pump" failing. Yeah sure..if you say so.
Etc,Etc,Etc.

If you removed it because your racing at the track...I get it!

If you removed it because you want to mix your own fuel... I get it

If you removed it because you don't like the looks of it... I get it.

If your removing it because someone told you it "Fails all the time",or its "not reliable",then your a fool,and your very easily drawn into bullsh*t.

I'll be posting a video very soon of how the oil injection system works. It will be pretty cool. A bench mounted model. I'll show how it works,and why NOT to be afraid of it. Hopefully this will dispell the ignorant rumors about the system. Ignorance is bliss.

Also for the record...You can run oil injection on a MODIFIED ENGINE!

If your running a carb other than the stock Mikuni VM26, YES... an oil injection nipple can be added to your carb!

It really is that simple.

 

[dksix]

In the video you will be making, will you be trying to cause it to fail with in the ways that's been brought up here; dirt in the system, air bubbles and so forth?

 

[joeak47]

In the video you will be making, will you be trying to cause it to fail with in the ways that's been brought up here; dirt in the system, air bubbles and so forth?

I can cause anything to fail,and so can you. Get real.

The trick is to keep things running properly and for a very long time....CORRECT?

A complete idiot can get things to stop running or working.

Thats like saying lets do a video to show how weak YZ 250 spokes are by jamming a steel rod into them while going down the road. That way I can blame "the crappy spoke system that holds up the bike".

Or.... perhaps we could do a video on how poorly designed tires are after we shoot a hole through one and complain that it no longer holds air.

Perhaps a video showing how a garden hose is crap because when you purposely kink it,and it won't flow water.

I'll do a video that explains how things work,How it injects into the cab,how to bleed it,how to fill it properly,how to inspect it,things to look for,how to keep it running for a long long time,etc.

Believe it or not,the oil tank already has some redundancies built into it to make it more "idiot resistant" against "most" idiots.

You can be the guy that does a demo video showing all the negative things that can happen when an owner is a slob,gets in a hurry, and does everything improperly to purposely get the system to fail.
Pouring half a pound of dirt into the oil tank,and then saying... "See...I told you so", proves nothing what so ever. I already know whats going to happen,and so do you.

I have no intentions of trying to make anybody return to they're oil injection system. I could care less if you do. Read my original post. I wanted to experiment with pre-mix fuel ratios and different oils. I also kept reading and hearing about the extra "Power" you get with pre-mix fuels V.S. oil injection. We all want more power right?

I live in the real world with "Real World" riding conditions,and want to keep things running a long time and without issues and save money. Obviously I'm very successful at doing that,and so are many other people. However,there will always be the lazy,ignorant,slobs that don't want to do required maintenance,and put they're blaster in storage without even washing the mud off. I've watched people (twice) put a new top end on (not cheap) without washing the bike first. Thats stupid! There was all kinds of dirt stuck to the frame that dropped into the cylinder and crank case,before putting the head on and torquing the head bolts. Then they wondered why the compression was low. Dahhh. There wouldn't have been problems if they would have took ten minutes and washed the bike first. This is equivalent to simply wiping off the oil cap before filling the oil tank. It really is that simple. If you get junk in the tank because you didn't, that your fault. Not the oil injection systems fault. Such a simple thing.

My buddy's 91 blaster is still using the oil injection since new. No issues what so ever. Thats right 21 years without issues.
My 03 blaster is still using its injection system since new (after putting it back on.) No issues.
My wifes 04 still has the oil injection system. It has no issues. She even takes the time to wipe off the oil cap before (imagine that) replenishing the oil tank,and knows how to do a quick inspection before taking her blaster for a ride.
My other buddy's 03 has the oil injection system removed (for a few months) to experiment with "pre-mix" ,but is thinking of putting it back on for convenience. Its up to him.

Bottom line, I like my oil injection,and I'm sticking with it.
If you like pre-mixing and prefer that. Good deal. I get it.

I do know this as fact...An engine that runs Pre-mix fuel DOES NOT make more power than the same engine running oil injection.

I couldn't feel one bit of difference.

thats why I originally removed the oil injection. To find out if it was true. I'm always looking for more power.

 

[slickerthanyou]

There you go people...Strait from the Two Stroke GURU himself !!!

Rememer this...
The reason for me removing my oil injection was because I wanted to experiment with castor oil,and the other high quality two stroke oils that are out there on the market,and to experiment with different fuel to oil ratios. I wanted to do this because I kept reading and hearing that "Pre-mixed fuels" make more POWER than an "Oil injected" engine can.
Do you know what I found out? That rumor/myth was a COMPLETE LIE!
The sad part is that most people believe this kind of crap. They hear it from a friend,or the guy down the street,or read it in a forum,or what ever.

I've never been the kind of guy that "keeps up with the Jones's",or "Does it because everybody else does". Piss on that! I check the validity of things and what people say and do. I'm a "Realist",and I'm a "Thinker",and I think outside the box!
Believe me it wasn't cheap to do this. As we all know,the good oil isn't cheap when you have to go purchase it,and also many different kinds. I learned alot from all the oils,and oil to fuel ratios,and have changed more main jets in the last few months than any of you have in your life time.

Just for the record, I in no way removed my factory stock Yamaha "Auto Lube" oil injection systen because I was "Worried" about it failing in any way!!!. I was not,or am I now, in the slightest,... "Worried" about ANY component of the oil injection system!!!

I can't emphasize it enough that I am not "Worried" or "Even think about" the failure of any of the following components...
#1 Oil injection pump
#2 Plastic (Delrin,or Nylon) drive gear
#3 Rigid oil "Supply" line
#4 Rigid oil "Delivery" line
#5 Oil supply tank
#6 Oil sensor (tattle tale)
#7 Oil light
#8 Oil line retention clips
#9 Oil line retention cuffs
#10 Oil fill cap



I'm still am waiting to "see" proof of all the "Failed" components from this system that everybody says happens all the time. Good luck with that!

I'm always hearing about the "delrin drive gear" breaking. Yeah right.
I'm always hearing about the "injection pump" failing. Yeah sure..if you say so.
Etc,Etc,Etc.

If you removed it because your racing at the track...I get it!

If you removed it because you want to mix your own fuel... I get it

If you removed it because you don't like the looks of it... I get it.

If your removing it because someone told you it "Fails all the time",or its "not reliable",then your a fool,and your very easily drawn into bullsh*t.

I'll be posting a video very soon of how the oil injection system works. It will be pretty cool. A bench mounted model. I'll show how it works,and why NOT to be afraid of it. Hopefully this will dispell the ignorant rumors about the system. Ignorance is bliss.

Also for the record...You can run oil injection on a MODIFIED ENGINE!

If your running a carb other than the stock Mikuni VM26, YES... an oil injection nipple can be added to your carb!

It really is that simple.

I have never heard of the myth premix gives you more power than injection.

I have heard a couple broken delrin gears, but never a pump failure. I guess I'm one of the dumbshits that removed it, because so and so said it is a good idea, and the fact that I spend alot of time and money into the motor and didn't want to take the chance of that failing on me. I did also not want to modify my new larger carb, as that gives me a smaller market to resell it when that time comes.

I will say I have thought about going back quite a few times when I dumped 5gallons premix into the car by mistake more than once!

So any vids on how/where to put and injection nipple, where to get the items needed?

 

[joeak47]

I have never heard of the myth premix gives you more power than injection.

I have heard a couple broken delrin gears, but never a pump failure. I guess I'm one of the dumbshits that removed it, because so and so said it is a good idea, and the fact that I spend alot of time and money into the motor and didn't want to take the chance of that failing on me. I did also not want to modify my new larger carb, as that gives me a smaller market to resell it when that time comes.

I will say I have thought about going back quite a few times when I dumped 5gallons premix into the car by mistake more than once!

So any vids on how/where to put and injection nipple, where to get the items needed?

OUCH! How was the cars catalitic converter after that?

 

[Blaaster]

I kept reading and hearing that "Pre-mixed fuels" make more POWER than an "Oil injected" engine can.
Do you know what I found out? That rumor/myth was a COMPLETE LIE!
The sad part is that most people believe this kind of crap.

Gordon Jennings wrote in the Two Stroke Tuners Handbook, that a heavier oil concentration in the premix will make more power.

Others too have documented that a heavier oil concentration can increase compression resulting in a little more power.

Stock oil injection ratio is about 20:1, so then premixing at 32:1 should loose power over stock.

 

[slickerthanyou]

OUCH! How was the cars catalitic converter after that?

still runs fine! Bad part is I have the cans marked too! Just a senior moment!

 

[joeak47]

Gordon Jennings wrote in the Two Stroke Tuners Handbook, that a heavier oil concentration in the premix will make more power.

Others too have documented that a heavier oil concentration can increase compression resulting in a little more power.

Stock oil injection ratio is about 20:1, so then premixing at 32:1 should loose power over stock.

YES it does! Especially with that castor oil!

 

[Blaaster]

I there was a bean oil that could be used in injection, and I had complete faith in a dial a jet system to allow me to adjust jetting to suit conditions, I would return to stock oil injection.

 

[dksix]

Oh, Joe. It hurts me down deep when you talk to me like that......Seriously, though. If you want to disprove the myths about the injection system you must stress the system to show it is reliable. If you look back in the thread you will find I use the system, have used injection on other bikes and have never had any problems. Just like you say any system can be made to fail, doing so will prove nothing but neither will a bench test in ideal conditions. I would like to see how the system recovers from an air bubble, or how much dirt it actually takes to stop up the lines. If you are doing this to prove you're right, it's going to be of little benefit to anyone but yourself.

I know the spokes will break if you stick a steel rod in them going down the road but will they break if I let the front end was out in the switch backs coming down a mountain?????

I know the tires will lose air if they have a hole shot through them but I do like the side walls to be stiff enough for my to ride back to the truck it a stick pokes a hole through them on the trail.

And I've had a hard time with water hoses because I have my outside faucet behind the pressure regulator. So when I buy hoses I find ones that rated for commercial/food service duty, and if it burst....I take it back for a refund.

I didn't start this thread. I didn't say the system the system works. I didn't insult those who had a different opinion YOU DID , now it's time to put up or shut up.

I can cause anything to fail,and so can you. Get real.

The trick is to keep things running properly and for a very long time....CORRECT?

A complete idiot can get things to stop running or working.

Thats like saying lets do a video to show how weak YZ 250 spokes are by jamming a steel rod into them while going down the road. That way I can blame "the crappy spoke system that holds up the bike".

Or.... perhaps we could do a video on how poorly designed tires are after we shoot a hole through one and complain that it no longer holds air.

Perhaps a video showing how a garden hose is crap because when you purposely kink it,and it won't flow water.

 

[sicivicdude]

I have a spare oil pump sitting on the shelf complete with nylon gear I would volunteer for the testing. As far as I know it worked, I removed it from a clutch cover I got in a parts lot off Ebay (came on a motor with a hole in the bottom end from a blown piston so no guarantees!)

More than welcome to it if you'd like.

BTW, I have disassembled an oil injection pump for giggles before to inspect the guts.

The nylon gear feeds into the main shaft. The main shaft has a worm gear built into it. That worm gear turns another shaft on an eccentric. That eccentric moves a very small plunger "piston" in and out. I saw nothing I would have called a valve inside the body (could be buried below the inlet and outlet tubes though) that could clog or mess up but I figure without some sort of valving mechanism a displacement piston won't work. The "guts" of the system are pretty simple, really.

 

[joeak47]

I never knew that snow machines,or snowmobiles ran a "oil injection filter". This might make a nice addition to the blaster's oil feed line. It looks like it has a large surface area,and would hold lots of debris if you got a bunch in the tank. From what I read,watercraft also run a filter on the oil injection,but how much dirt are they encountering on the water? :-/

Yamaha Oil Injection Filter | eBay

Seeing that the oil tank on the blaster has a pre filter (little piece of foam) under the cap,and the outlet at the bottom of the tank sits a little bit above a small resevoir molded into the bottom,this filter would make it ,for lack of a better term "triple redundant".
I think I'll pick up one of these filters and give it a try. Another modification that might make sense,but probably isn't needed,would be to drill another vent hole in the cap same size as the other one.

 

[xKroniK13x]

I would like to see how the system recovers from an air bubble, or how much dirt it actually takes to stop up the lines.

I actually like this idea a lot... see just how much the system can take before it fails.

I have a spare oil pump sitting on the shelf complete with nylon gear I would volunteer for the testing. As far as I know it worked, I removed it from a clutch cover I got in a parts lot off Ebay (came on a motor with a hole in the bottom end from a blown piston so no guarantees!)

More than welcome to it if you'd like.

BTW, I have disassembled an oil injection pump for giggles before to inspect the guts.

The nylon gear feeds into the main shaft. The main shaft has a worm gear built into it. That worm gear turns another shaft on an eccentric. That eccentric moves a very small plunger "piston" in and out. I saw nothing I would have called a valve inside the body (could be buried below the inlet and outlet tubes though) that could clog or mess up but I figure without some sort of valving mechanism a displacement piston won't work. The "guts" of the system are pretty simple, really.

Good info civic. Nice to offer the pump!

Looking forward to test results, regardless of what they show.

 

[joeak47]

In the next few days I should have a bench mounted,working model of the yamaha "Auto Lube" oil injection system. I've come up with a few ideas that should work well to test the system.

How much would most people consider a normal amount of "dirt" to be dropped into,or fall into the oil injection tank? Are we talking about the loose stuff that can fall in when you remove a dirty cap?

If a blaster was flipped,or knocked on the side,how long would it be left that way before it was put back on iys wheels? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 10 minutes?

How full should the tank be? Is half full fair or half empty? My guess would be half.

 

[Blaaster]

In the next few days I should have a bench mounted,working model of the yamaha "Auto Lube" oil injection system. I've come up with a few ideas that should work well to test the system.

How much would most people consider a normal amount of "dirt" to be dropped into,or fall into the oil injection tank? Are we talking about the loose stuff that can fall in when you remove a dirty cap?

If a blaster was flipped,or knocked on the side,how long would it be left that way before it was put back on iys wheels? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 10 minutes?

How full should the tank be? Is half full fair or half empty? My guess would be half.

The amount that would fall into the tank from an extremly dirty/muddy situation.

Most bikes are back on their wheels within a minute of being flipped.

A situation I saw recently was a bike stood up on end for repairs to the steering, and it was up for over 30 mins, the owner then dropped it back on its feet and drove off. I still wonder how long he had a working motor for.

There should be little enough oil in the tank to allow the delivery tube to stop picking up oil.

I know that it would be a costly experiment, but I often wonder just how long a motor would run for with an empty tank, like a situation of, Oops I forgot to fill the oil tank, maybe it has just run out and I may be lucky if I put some in now.

Just how long will a 2 stroke motor run on the oil which has come out of suspension and pooled in the crancase before destruction.

Will a dry pump which has been starved of oil automatically bleed itself or will it need human intervention.

 

[Awk08]

If a blaster was flipped,or knocked on the side,how long would it be left that way before it was put back on iys wheels? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 10 minutes?

How full should the tank be? Is half full fair or half empty? My guess would be half.

who all stands the quad on it's grab bar to work on/maintaintence ?
i've done it to every one i've owned to get the oil drain plug loose and change/fix swinger skids.
is this straight up and down position enuf to flow oil from the pump back to the tank ?
is the oil laying in the cases enuf to cover us for a few seconds/minutes in the event of one of these
suggested "hiccups" the pump may or may not have ?
anyone know if there is a type of check valve in this system (line or pump) to prevent back flow ?

the manual calls for re-bleeding the system :
"if any part of it has been removed, oil tank run dry , or the atv has been turned onto it's SIDE"
by removing the bleeder screw, and also removing the line to the carb and filling it with oil.

is it possible that any dirt entering the system can clog the injection nozzle in the carb, not actually cause a pump failure ?
has cleaning this oil injection nozzle been covered or discussed anywhere ? or in any of the carb cleaning/maintainence DIY's ???

 

[joeak47]

First off, If I upset anybody on here it wasn't my intentions. If it happened,I'm sorry,I do appologize... Genuinely
I just get burned out hearing all the myths about the broken delrin drive gears and the worn out pumps,etc,but never see any of these broken worn out parts,or pictures of them in 20+ years.
Moving forward... What kind or amount of dirt will get in the sytem? The reason I ask this,is because I've never gotten dirt in any of the blasters I've ran,or are currently running in the last 20 years.

Blaaster says ..."The amount that would fall into the tank from an extremly dirty/muddy situation."

Not trying to get anal,but I just need to know how much dirt/debris that is and how it got in the in the first place. The rubber cap keeps that crap out so it doesn't get in there,and the oil tank will last,I believe between 3-5 tanks of fuel depending if your riding on the needle or the jet,so the cap wouldn't be removed very often.

What can we agree on to keep the test fair? We all know that nobody is going to get dirty enough to end up with half a tank of dirt,let alone a teaspoon.

I guess what I'm asking,is "HOW" is all this dirt getting in the system? The only way in is through the cap/fill hole, or through the vent hole in the cap. There is no other way...period

Another thing that makes you go "Hmmmm?" is this...

This is a "Factory Yamaha oil injection filter". These are used on water craft and snow machines. Why in the hell does a water craft,or snow machine need a filter in they're oil line? They're no where near dirt.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WSM-Oil-Inj...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a23ac5c31&vxp=mtr

 

[sicivicdude]

First off, If I upset anybody on here it wasn't my intentions. If it happened,I'm sorry,I do appologize... Genuinely

I just get burned out hearing all the myths about the broken delrin drive gears and the worn out pumps,etc,but never see any of these broken worn out parts,or pictures of them in 20+ years.

Moving forward... What kind or amount of dirt will get in the sytem? The reason I ask this,is because I've never gotten dirt in any of the blasters I've ran,or are currently running in the last 20 years.

Blaaster says ..."The amount that would fall into the tank from an extremly dirty/muddy situation."

Not trying to get anal,but I just need to know how much dirt/debris that is and how it got in the in the first place. The rubber cap keeps that crap out so it doesn't get in there,and the oil tank will last,I believe between 3-5 tanks of fuel depending if your riding on the needle or the jet,so the cap wouldn't be removed very often.

What can we agree on to keep the test fair? We all know that nobody is going to get dirty enough to end up with half a tank of dirt,let alone a teaspoon.

I guess what I'm asking,is "HOW" is all this dirt getting in the system? The only way in is through the cap/fill hole, or through the vent hole in the cap. There is no other way...period

Another thing that makes you go "Hmmmm?" is this...

This is a "Factory Yamaha oil injection filter". These are used on water craft and snow machines. Why in the hell does a water craft,or snow machine need a filter in they're oil line? They're no where near dirt.

I *believe* the point in them asking was that you don't always have the most sanitary and clean conditions on the side of the trail somewhere (where you can have a problem) . I don't think anyone is silly enough to take a big glob of mud and throw it down in the tank and expect that not to have some sort of side effect. However some dirt and dust around the cap isn't unreasonable to be expected at some point to be looked over and it could possibly get into the tank either during a refill or maybe even a top open check of the oil level?

I don't think there are any other sources of contamination other than the open cap and the vent line. I don't see the vent being a major source of solid dirt (maybe some dust? but I doubt that will affect anything) but an open cap can have some crud fall in.

Now that you mention it, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to install a sediment type filter (versus a water trap) in a aqua or snow setting anymore than it makes any sense for them to omit it on the blaster. I guess they "just didn't" on the blaster and "just did" on the snowmobiles and jetskis...

 

[Awk08]

now my memories of oil injection use are coming back to me............ the foam thingy inside the tank apparently is there to catch any particles that may fall in ??
i remember using clean needle nose pliers to pull that foam out every time i added oil, < and cleaning it off if needed, that also allowed me to pour the oil in faster.
are people removing that foam "catch" and leaving it out ??