just to clear the air, thats all the grease i've ever seen in any bearings
which i usually buy "All Balls" brand, that specific set from rjatv,<(they have nuthin to do with prepackaged parts)
but i've bought factory ones with minimal grease too
Wheres the grease ?????
- Thread starter Awk08
- Start date
just to clear the air, thats all the grease i've ever seen in any bearings
which i usually buy "All Balls" brand, that specific set from rjatv,<(they have nuthin to do with prepackaged parts)
but i've bought factory ones with minimal grease too
Yes, the distributor has nearly nothing to do with the finished product. I meant the actual manufacturer was borderline criminal putting that little grease into their product. Whether it's Koyo or some manufacturer out of poland (believe it or not a lot of roller bearings are made in Poland), they should put enough grease in it to lubricate it the first time it rolls... what's in that bearing is far too little.
Nice tip Awk. The scary thing is new bikes and quads come the same way from the factory. Almost no grease on any of the bearings.
Found this and thought I would bring it out of the graveyard, as the rear axle bearing kit I got a couple months ago(I can't remember where I got them at ), and put in tonight had abut 3-4 raindrop size spots of grease which was barely enough to initially lube the balls, no way would it fill the bearing (even when hot) enough to keep water and other contaminates from entering past the seal.
This is a problem across all bearings, sealed and shieldEd bearings are said to have just enough grease to keep rust from forming in storage. Seems to me they have just enough grease in them to make you think they are properly greased, when it's only really enough to make sure any dust dirt or grit that males it to the seal will get picked up and stuck inside the bearing.
I did not fit a zero fitting (yet), but I did pack the bearings, inside and outside of the sleeve, dead space under the bearings and groove on the underside of the seals with waterproof grease. I guess if I put a fitting now I will have to deal with any possible shavings that pass through from the time the center of the hole opens until the bit is through, and the hole is tapped. After the rusty mess I just cleaned up, I am gonna bet that any metal that gets left in the carrier when tapping for the zerk fitting will be much less harmful than a carrier full of water.
Once I put the sprocket hub and axles nuts on and torqued them, I was able to give the carrier a spin by hand and it would travel 1/4 to 1/2 of a turn further before stopping, of course as everything runs in it will probably free up a little more. I was happy with it as it felt super smooth.
Anyway follows AWKS advice and pop that seal out and pack your bearings before use. I would also have the zerk fitting, drill bit, and tap ready so that you can go ahead and put the grease fitting in the carrier while it is apart and clean.
This is a problem across all bearings, sealed and shieldEd bearings are said to have just enough grease to keep rust from forming in storage. Seems to me they have just enough grease in them to make you think they are properly greased, when it's only really enough to make sure any dust dirt or grit that males it to the seal will get picked up and stuck inside the bearing.
I did not fit a zero fitting (yet), but I did pack the bearings, inside and outside of the sleeve, dead space under the bearings and groove on the underside of the seals with waterproof grease. I guess if I put a fitting now I will have to deal with any possible shavings that pass through from the time the center of the hole opens until the bit is through, and the hole is tapped. After the rusty mess I just cleaned up, I am gonna bet that any metal that gets left in the carrier when tapping for the zerk fitting will be much less harmful than a carrier full of water.
Once I put the sprocket hub and axles nuts on and torqued them, I was able to give the carrier a spin by hand and it would travel 1/4 to 1/2 of a turn further before stopping, of course as everything runs in it will probably free up a little more. I was happy with it as it felt super smooth.
Anyway follows AWKS advice and pop that seal out and pack your bearings before use. I would also have the zerk fitting, drill bit, and tap ready so that you can go ahead and put the grease fitting in the carrier while it is apart and clean.
They are called Zerk fittings after the guy who had a patent on them.
There is a reason there is only a tiny bit of grease in the bearing, and it is not so much to do with the manufacturer saving money on grease or selling more bearings. It has to do with making one bearing that will make the most customers happy. You see, when you buy a 6205-2RS bearing the manufacturer has no idea where you are going to use it. So their specs say you spin it to 8500 rpm and set 3/4 ton on it and it will survive. Furthermore, they don't know if you are going to set it over a bread assembly line or a hot motor while you spin it at 8500 rpm and put a 3/4 ton load on it, so they have to assure it will take that while not leaking grease, because you bought a sealed bearing to keep the grease in, right?
A rain drop of grease or oil will keep a bearing alive for a long, long time. Also, it will allow it to spin faster. That same 6205-2RS bearing with the seals removed and lubricated with oil will stand 18,000 rpm! The extra grease AWK08 is putting in the bearing is not to save the bearing, but only to keep water out. It wasn't wear or lack of oil that killed AWK08's bearings but water and rust. So if we need bearings with extra water and rust resistance, why don't they make them? Well, they do, but they are not $3 like the "made for everything" 6205-2RS. A stainless steel or even "extra grease" special order bearing will be $15-$50 each. Are you willing to pay that? Most of us will buy the cheap bearings and either put a little grease in them or between them and the outer seal.
Is there anything wrong with pumping the whole rear carrier full of grease?
Well, there will be more rolling resistance and about a pound more unsprung weight and if it is completely full or you pump too much in it will pop the outer seals off. It will handle immersion better, but is a whole lot more time and mess if you do get water in. I do like pumping the swingarm bolts full. Low volume and movement. Not so much the rear carrier.
Steve
There is a reason there is only a tiny bit of grease in the bearing, and it is not so much to do with the manufacturer saving money on grease or selling more bearings. It has to do with making one bearing that will make the most customers happy. You see, when you buy a 6205-2RS bearing the manufacturer has no idea where you are going to use it. So their specs say you spin it to 8500 rpm and set 3/4 ton on it and it will survive. Furthermore, they don't know if you are going to set it over a bread assembly line or a hot motor while you spin it at 8500 rpm and put a 3/4 ton load on it, so they have to assure it will take that while not leaking grease, because you bought a sealed bearing to keep the grease in, right?
A rain drop of grease or oil will keep a bearing alive for a long, long time. Also, it will allow it to spin faster. That same 6205-2RS bearing with the seals removed and lubricated with oil will stand 18,000 rpm! The extra grease AWK08 is putting in the bearing is not to save the bearing, but only to keep water out. It wasn't wear or lack of oil that killed AWK08's bearings but water and rust. So if we need bearings with extra water and rust resistance, why don't they make them? Well, they do, but they are not $3 like the "made for everything" 6205-2RS. A stainless steel or even "extra grease" special order bearing will be $15-$50 each. Are you willing to pay that? Most of us will buy the cheap bearings and either put a little grease in them or between them and the outer seal.
Is there anything wrong with pumping the whole rear carrier full of grease?
Well, there will be more rolling resistance and about a pound more unsprung weight and if it is completely full or you pump too much in it will pop the outer seals off. It will handle immersion better, but is a whole lot more time and mess if you do get water in. I do like pumping the swingarm bolts full. Low volume and movement. Not so much the rear carrier.
Steve
They are called Zerk fittings after the guy who had a patent on them.
There is a reason there is only a tiny bit of grease in the bearing, and it is not so much to do with the manufacturer saving money on grease or selling more bearings. It has to do with making one bearing that will make the most customers happy. You see, when you buy a 6205-2RS bearing the manufacturer has no idea where you are going to use it. So their specs say you spin it to 8500 rpm and set 3/4 ton on it and it will survive. Furthermore, they don't know if you are going to set it over a bread assembly line or a hot motor while you spin it at 8500 rpm and put a 3/4 ton load on it, so they have to assure it will take that while not leaking grease, because you bought a sealed bearing to keep the grease in, right?
A rain drop of grease or oil will keep a bearing alive for a long, long time. Also, it will allow it to spin faster. That same 6205-2RS bearing with the seals removed and lubricated with oil will stand 18,000 rpm! The extra grease AWK08 is putting in the bearing is not to save the bearing, but only to keep water out. It wasn't wear or lack of oil that killed AWK08's bearings but water and rust. So if we need bearings with extra water and rust resistance, why don't they make them? Well, they do, but they are not $3 like the "made for everything" 6205-2RS. A stainless steel or even "extra grease" special order bearing will be $15-$50 each. Are you willing to pay that? Most of us will buy the cheap bearings and either put a little grease in them or between them and the outer seal.
Is there anything wrong with pumping the whole rear carrier full of grease?
Well, there will be more rolling resistance and about a pound more unsprung weight and if it is completely full or you pump too much in it will pop the outer seals off. It will handle immersion better, but is a whole lot more time and mess if you do get water in. I do like pumping the swingarm bolts full. Low volume and movement. Not so much the rear carrier.
Steve
What your are saying makes good sense, but remember 4 decades ago they made light trucks with in line 6 motors, that would easily last 300k miles, over 20+ years, then they figured out that they could make a vehicle that only lasted 5 or 10 years, 50 to 150k before a major failure, usually the underspeced transmission, sell it for just as much and increase their margins.
It is a common practice across all industries to produce products with limited lifespans when often a 5% or less cost increase, can result in 10 or even 20% lifespan increase. But then they would have to sell it for not 5% more but 20% more to make up for the extra time it last before another must be bought. I don't have any specific examples handy and the above numbers were pulled out of thin air, to make a light of a well known practice.
Anyhow why there is a certain amount of grease in it is irrelevant and can be argued for ever and unless we talk to the person that ultimately made the call, it's all just conjecture.
What is important is that adding additional grease under the seals of the bearings, for our purposes is certainly a benefit. Our application is relatively low speed and typically quite dusty, wet, dirty and grimy.
Even on a drag bike I seriously doubt packing the bearings with grease, or washing them out and oiling them would effect your ET's in any noticable manner.
As far as greasing the carrier by the time you fill it with an axle, sleeve, bearings and seals there is room for a few ounces of grease at best. I would always at least thoroughly grease the sleeve before putting in the carrier. As for packing it completely full I agree it could add some additional drag, possibly even seep out past the seals.
To me it's just peace of mind first time you get water in past the dust covers and seals, it is going to cause a ungreased or poorly greased sleeve to rust creating at least as much if not more drag than a throughly greased carrier.
To others say on a drag bike, that never sees water, mud,etc. Filling the carrier might be a waste of time an even take a couple hundredths or thousandths off of ET's, in that case I would not fill the carrier. My top speed is 60mph not really much rpm at the axle,
It really comes down to if 3 ounces of weight, and a little extra drag at top speed is a problem and your bike will see little or no water, then avoid excess grease in the carrier.
I think if I were to put in a zerk I might remove the bearing seals all together or at least the inside one as to make it easier to grease.
Warning Geek Alert, the below is dry, unexciting , and mostly factual
To save you the boredom the point is that modern companies are mostly only concerned about the bottom line and profits,and will provide the cheapest, most inferior product the public will buy, and spend tons on making sure it falls just short of really lasting, because it is more profitable to sell multiple inferior replacement parts over a products expected life, than it is to design a product that lasts as long as possible at a given price point.
While I will agree that a sealed bearing should not leak when subjected to the most severe rated duty or even a percentage higher.
I would suspect that the amount of grease internal to the seals, is not the maximum possible, based on leak prevention, but the absolute minimum required to meet minimum critera in an ideal enviroment, at rated load and speed, for a specific amount of time.
Any more grease than that minimum amount would be a waste to the company, as 5 cents per bearing worth of grease adds up over a few million pieces, and would also likely provide a longer life expectancy, fewer replacements, and lost revenue in the eyes of the board of directors, who are really the ones who dictate these things.
It used to be a company was interested in making the absolute best product at the most efficient price point, as to try and be better than the competition and remain profitable, some well funded highly successful companies still do this as they can afford to take a slightly reduced margin, to match the price point of companies, while providing a better product. Then once the market catches on and realizes that brand Z last 60% longer, they can then charge more and actually get better margins.
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Actually, I got my driver's licence 4 decades ago. My first car was a 1962 Comet and my first bike was a 1967 Honda Dream. I put new rings and rod bearings in my father-in-law's 1964 6cyl F100 in the driveway with the engine still in the truck. It had less than 60,000 miles on it and it was smoking terribly. Not many engines got over 100,000 miles without burning oil back then. Oil was poor and so were the rings. Quality is much better these days. My 1962 was 14 years old and was an oddity. That was old for a daily driven car back then. Look at how many pre-2000 cars are still on the road now. That said, the gist of what you are saying is true. Everything these days is sized (engineered) to be just strong enough, no more. Including the grease in the bearings.
Steve
Talking about 4 decades ago... This was my 1974 Maverick.
It sometimes had a problem with smoking too, but it wasn't piston rings.
Motor was a 1970 351C 4V with hand made headers to get it to fit.
My take on extra grease, which I believe is not required.
The bearing, itself, consists of an inner race, an outer race, balls and a cage which evenly distributes the balls. Common bearings are designed to allow for a radial load with some limited axial loading. ALL BEARINGS ARE LUBRICATED WITH OIL.
Grease, itself, is an oil sponge. The base (spongy) part of the grease varies depending on the manufacturer, temperature, environment and user preference. The grease holds the oil in suspension and allows the oil to flow during operation. The oil compresses between the bearing balls, inner and outer races and the cage, reducing friction. Ball bearings have small, microscopically rough surfaces on the balls, these surfaces move the oil, holding it to the ball during operation.
When too much grease is added, the grease is compressed between the bearing surfaces, increasing pressure and resulting with heat. Too little grease causes the surface friction to increase, resulting with heat.
If a bearing heats up any extra grease that cannot be contained within the seal will be expelled.
When the bearing cools the grease will be drawn back into the bearing, if there is any contamination of the expelled grease by water or dirt, this will be drawn back into the bearing, eventually causing its destruction.
The manufacturer puts adequate grease in their bearings. Just enough to allow expansion without expulsion, and enough for lubrication.
The bearing, itself, consists of an inner race, an outer race, balls and a cage which evenly distributes the balls. Common bearings are designed to allow for a radial load with some limited axial loading. ALL BEARINGS ARE LUBRICATED WITH OIL.
Grease, itself, is an oil sponge. The base (spongy) part of the grease varies depending on the manufacturer, temperature, environment and user preference. The grease holds the oil in suspension and allows the oil to flow during operation. The oil compresses between the bearing balls, inner and outer races and the cage, reducing friction. Ball bearings have small, microscopically rough surfaces on the balls, these surfaces move the oil, holding it to the ball during operation.
When too much grease is added, the grease is compressed between the bearing surfaces, increasing pressure and resulting with heat. Too little grease causes the surface friction to increase, resulting with heat.
If a bearing heats up any extra grease that cannot be contained within the seal will be expelled.
When the bearing cools the grease will be drawn back into the bearing, if there is any contamination of the expelled grease by water or dirt, this will be drawn back into the bearing, eventually causing its destruction.
The manufacturer puts adequate grease in their bearings. Just enough to allow expansion without expulsion, and enough for lubrication.
Sweet Maverick btw, my first car was a 92 escort super economy edition with a tall gear ratio and a 5 speed. There was nothing to take away precious horsepower, the timing belt run the water pump, and the drive belt turned the alternator and that was about it. I had Bosch platinum plugs,high end wires routed so as to touch nothing except the insulated guides, base timing was bumped a coupletter degrees, K and N air filter, and oversized quit cat back. That little thing put about 20% -25% more HP to the wheels than an lx, it would pretty easily smoke the GT version as well. I got to where I could smoke em and lay double black marks all the across the local parking lot (small town 40 or 50 yards). I did some really stupid things in those days like 100 mpg cruises around the county on curvy, hilly 2 lane roads, my rule was I had to stay in my lane and no uncontrolled skidding, that way if something happened,, I still had enough room and traction to throw it into a hard skid and avoid obstscles.
Memories, I am sure you ran the dog pee out of that Maverick back in the day.
Anyhow let's look at how fast our axles turn.
Circumference equals 3.14159x diameter
Let's say 20 inch tires 62.83 inches per revolution or .000991 miles per revolution or about 1009 revolutions per mile
Call top speed 60 mph is 60,540 revolutions per hour
Or 1009 rpm at top speed
So running flat out wide open 6th gear your axle will be turning 1000 rpm, with maybe 125 lbs dead weight on each bearing. Given there will be bumps and jumps changing the loading on the bearings, but in all reality our axles are going to be turning an average of about 400-600 rpm for maybe a couple hours at a time. Hardly turning fast enough, or loaded heavy enough to create substantial heat or expansion and contraction. I would expect daily and seasonal changes to have more of an effect on the temperature of the bearings and grease than normal running loads.
Anyhow this post is several years old, and I am sure a few people have tried this, at least a few years ago, I would be interested to see, hear what condition the grease and bearings are in, and if they found this method usefull.
In my case one bearing was rusty and almost completely frozen (only the slop in it kept it moving), the other on the caliper side was stil, in pretty good shape, the thin coat of grease that was put on the sleeve and axle had long since turned to hard rust covered grease cakes, this is on a 2002 model and I imagine there were probably 8-10 years on those bearings, if not 13 or 14 years. Of course at 1000 rpm max. It would take thousands of hours to wear the bearings out even with dirty grease in them.
I feel like the only thing that will kill such a robust bearing in such a low load low speed application, would be for it to run out of grease and be attacked by moisture and water.
Either way I don't expect I will ever have to change these bearings again, unless I let them run dry on grease.
Memories, I am sure you ran the dog pee out of that Maverick back in the day.
Anyhow let's look at how fast our axles turn.
Circumference equals 3.14159x diameter
Let's say 20 inch tires 62.83 inches per revolution or .000991 miles per revolution or about 1009 revolutions per mile
Call top speed 60 mph is 60,540 revolutions per hour
Or 1009 rpm at top speed
So running flat out wide open 6th gear your axle will be turning 1000 rpm, with maybe 125 lbs dead weight on each bearing. Given there will be bumps and jumps changing the loading on the bearings, but in all reality our axles are going to be turning an average of about 400-600 rpm for maybe a couple hours at a time. Hardly turning fast enough, or loaded heavy enough to create substantial heat or expansion and contraction. I would expect daily and seasonal changes to have more of an effect on the temperature of the bearings and grease than normal running loads.
Anyhow this post is several years old, and I am sure a few people have tried this, at least a few years ago, I would be interested to see, hear what condition the grease and bearings are in, and if they found this method usefull.
In my case one bearing was rusty and almost completely frozen (only the slop in it kept it moving), the other on the caliper side was stil, in pretty good shape, the thin coat of grease that was put on the sleeve and axle had long since turned to hard rust covered grease cakes, this is on a 2002 model and I imagine there were probably 8-10 years on those bearings, if not 13 or 14 years. Of course at 1000 rpm max. It would take thousands of hours to wear the bearings out even with dirty grease in them.
I feel like the only thing that will kill such a robust bearing in such a low load low speed application, would be for it to run out of grease and be attacked by moisture and water.
Either way I don't expect I will ever have to change these bearings again, unless I let them run dry on grease.
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Regardless of the grease issue, when doing the carrier brgs, coat the axle with anti-seize or at least grease where the sleeve and hubs go. If you've ever had to beat or cut a hub to get it off, you'll know why.
Myself, I have a zerk and no inner seals.
JMHO, your results may, and will vary.
Myself, I have a zerk and no inner seals.
JMHO, your results may, and will vary.
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