I wish they'd put this tech into ATV's

[Braaaptor]

This is nothing new...its been used in some race engines and outdoor equipment for years, but I'd love to see the so-called 4-mix engine technology make it into production ATV's. This is a 4-stroke engine that is engineered to run on pre-mixed fuel.

They burn clean, so the EPA and government would be happy, yet there is no oil pump, oil tank, oil lines, etc...to deal with. The engine is also rev-happy and responds to throttle much like a 2-stroke. Yeah, they have valves, but as long as you run good oil, they last well and you save weight by not having to lug around oiling components in your engine.

Stihl and Shindaiwa already have these engines in their handheld power equipment. They are nasty...lots of torque, with plenty of power and no smoke. I have one in my Stihl trimmer and love it. Maybe one day we can ride one...

 

[99LRDblaster]

Meh.......about the only benefit I see is weight savings in using it.......and even then it might weigh more since you need to increase the size of the cylinder. Interesting though.

 

[darederek]

sounds pretty awesome. that would be sweet to have maybe they can try it in like a 250 or something...

 

[Braaaptor]

sounds pretty awesome. that would be sweet to have maybe they can try it in like a 250 or something...

Oh yeah...maybe even try it in a dirtbike, where weight savings help even more, and see what happens from there.

 

[PikledBeats]

The EPA is bullshit anyway, BRP offers most it's snowmobiles in two or four stroke options still. If snowmobiles are still using two-strokes brand new ATV's should be too. There is a company in spain called gasgas who is making brand new race-ready two-stroke 200cc and 300cc. they are fugin sweet if you could drop ten grand. Also did you know yamaha is still making banshee's for sale south of the border. But yea crazy technology but I still say bring back the era of two strokes. I swear if you freshen your top end every riding season they are way more reliable than four pokers.

 

[99LRDblaster]

The EPA is bullshit anyway, BRP offers most it's snowmobiles in two or four stroke options still. If snowmobiles are still using two-strokes brand new ATV's should be too. There is a company in spain called gasgas who is making brand new race-ready two-stroke 200cc and 300cc. they are fugin sweet if you could drop ten grand. Also did you know yamaha is still making banshee's for sale south of the border. But yea crazy technology but I still say bring back the era of two strokes. I swear if you freshen your top end every riding season they are way more reliable than four pokers.

The EPA being bullshit is your opinion and a wrong one at that.

Gas Gas has been in the US and were selling quads in the US for a decent while....haven't heard much about them, so presuming they are no longer being sold in the US. They were in the same league as the Cannondales earlier this decade as "specialty" manufacturers.

The market for Banshees is still there in a lot of other countries since 450 four strokes are either not available to some countries and/or are not as widespread as the US. My guess is within the 3-5 years, the Banshee itself will no longer exist. I actually haven't looked up the patent on the Banshee and banshee components, but due to the heritage of the Banshee, I wouldn't exactly be shocked if a Chinese company manufacturered "banshees" if the patent went out, but I don't know how all that crap applies to company ATVs.

 

[sicivicdude]

Yamaha is a world wide company, the EPA is technically the U.S. EPA. The EPA can't tell yamaha what to sell in mexico...


There's a little bit of misinformation there....technically the EPA didn't tell yamaha to stop selling 2 strokes quads. The EPA told yamaha there is a maximum cap on emmisions across their entire product line-up including outboard motors, motor cycles, and atv's (sport and utility). Blasters and Banshees are really dirty so they could sell 1,000 blasters and banshees or 10,000 outboard motors. It was a business decision on the part of yamaha motors to stop selling the blaster and banshee in the US.

 

[sicivicdude]

As to the functionality of the 4 mix engine... modern 4 stroke engines are able to put out NEARLY the same PTWR as 2 stroke engines (at least ones that last more than 10 hours). Except for that sweet "BRapppp" sound, 2 strokes don't have much of an advantage over 4 strokes anymore and as 4 strokes continue to evolve, the margin will grow ever shorter.

The only places where 2 strokes won't lose their ground for any time to come is in machines where functionality at different angles is needed. The last great holdout for 2 strokes is the lowly chainsaw. Weedeaters, leaf blowers, trimmers, edgers... they can all be made using 4 mix or 4 stroke engines. They run in the same orientation 4 mix and 4 stroke engines are well suited for that purpose. Chainsaws however, because of the potency of their implement, cannot be made effective AND safe with a detachable, adjustable angle cutting head. They need to be able to run on their side for hours on end to fell trees.

4 mix's CAN do this but it will eventually wear on the lower bearing surfaces and the crank thrust system.

4 strokes cannot do this reliably unless they are designed to do it and then when you stand them upright to make a "downward" cut you've got the sump completely wrong again and it'll lock up then.

 

[99LRDblaster]

As to the functionality of the 4 mix engine... modern 4 stroke engines are able to put out NEARLY the same PTWR as 2 stroke engines (at least ones that last more than 10 hours). Except for that sweet "BRapppp" sound, 2 strokes don't have much of an advantage over 4 strokes anymore and as 4 strokes continue to evolve, the margin will grow ever shorter.

The only places where 2 strokes won't lose their ground for any time to come is in machines where functionality at different angles is needed. The last great holdout for 2 strokes is the lowly chainsaw. Weedeaters, leaf blowers, trimmers, edgers... they can all be made using 4 mix or 4 stroke engines. They run in the same orientation 4 mix and 4 stroke engines are well suited for that purpose. Chainsaws however, because of the potency of their implement, cannot be made effective AND safe with a detachable, adjustable angle cutting head. They need to be able to run on their side for hours on end to fell trees.

4 mix's CAN do this but it will eventually wear on the lower bearing surfaces and the crank thrust system.

4 strokes cannot do this reliably unless they are designed to do it and then when you stand them upright to make a "downward" cut you've got the sump completely wrong again and it'll lock up then.

They make sumps on racing vehicles that counteract that..........however it's a pretty pointless thing to add, since it's just added cost in manufacturing it into the engines.......and therefore a poor business decision.

 

[sicivicdude]

Even with a dry sump, if you turned that engine upside down not only would it smoke like summabitch when the oil starting sliding past the rings but as the oil was not being pumped into the accumulator, pressure would drop and the engine would fly apart.

4 strokes don't run upside down or on their side very well. 2 strokes (especially ones with forced metering carburetors and flop tubes in the gas tank for fuel pickup) don't even know the difference. They run just as happily in any position as they will in right side up orientation.

As for sumps, most hand held equipment sells for far less than it would cost to even manufacture the crankcase on a 4 stroke with a pressurized dry sump system on it.

 

[PikledBeats]

@99LRD

I'm not gonna argue with you as I've heard from others you know everything anyway....

 

[99LRDblaster]

As to the functionality of the 4 mix engine... modern 4 stroke engines are able to put out NEARLY the same PTWR as 2 stroke engines (at least ones that last more than 10 hours). Except for that sweet "BRapppp" sound, 2 strokes don't have much of an advantage over 4 strokes anymore and as 4 strokes continue to evolve, the margin will grow ever shorter.

The only places where 2 strokes won't lose their ground for any time to come is in machines where functionality at different angles is needed. The last great holdout for 2 strokes is the lowly chainsaw. Weedeaters, leaf blowers, trimmers, edgers... they can all be made using 4 mix or 4 stroke engines. They run in the same orientation 4 mix and 4 stroke engines are well suited for that purpose. Chainsaws however, because of the potency of their implement, cannot be made effective AND safe with a detachable, adjustable angle cutting head. They need to be able to run on their side for hours on end to fell trees.

4 mix's CAN do this but it will eventually wear on the lower bearing surfaces and the crank thrust system.

4 strokes cannot do this reliably unless they are designed to do it and then when you stand them upright to make a "downward" cut you've got the sump completely wrong again and it'll lock up then.

Some of them are work better than you might think. Example being planes that can fly inverted for sustained distances.

 

[Braaaptor]

Some of them are work better than you might think. Example being planes that can fly inverted for sustained distances.
YouTube - Inverted Flight Under Bridge

You have a point...plus remember the old radial aircraft engines... a couple cylinders on those engines are always running upside-down, no matter which direction the plane flies. You'd start one and get some flames and oil dripping from the bottom cylinders, but after that...off it would go!

 

[caseywoods5]

this thread taught me alot already... i knew alot about 4 strokes and 2 strokes but a couple things you guys pointed out was something i'd never knew before. like why a 4 stroke can't run on it's side or upside down and a 2 stroke can. good thread for sure!

 

[sicivicdude]

Some of them are work better than you might think. Example being planes that can fly inverted for sustained distances.
YouTube - Inverted Flight Under Bridge

I would not call flying under that bridge "sustained". Remember that a dry sump system uses a pressurized accumulator so oil pressure can be maintained for a certain amount of time even while the oil isn't falling back down to the sump but eventually all of the oil pressure will be lost and the bearings and crank will meet violently. The secret to that type of flying is the length of time it's upside down. The oil pump in a dry sump system can pump 3 times the volume the engine requires to maintain an oil film so it keeps the sump "dry". As the oil no longer falls into the sump, the pump runs dry but the accumulator keeps the pressure up for a time. Once the engine turns back over, the pump can once again pump of the volume in the accumulator and keep the engine from flying apart.

You have a point...plus remember the old radial aircraft engines... a couple cylinders on those engines are always running upside-down, no matter which direction the plane flies. You'd start one and get some flames and oil dripping from the bottom cylinders, but after that...off it would go!

Radial engines were total loss oiling because of that. The intake ran through the back of the crankcase and the crankshaft and main conrod were lubed by the incoming fuel (like a two stroke even though most were straight 4 strokes).

They were more of a 4 mix design than a 4 stroke because of the whole oiling system issue.

 

[DirtDiggler]

Banshee's are still sold around the world . The EPA ( in the sack with the Sierra club which is packed with lobbyists ) sent the manufacturers a threat that unless they lower noise and lower emissions they were going to ban atv's on public land outright . The atv makers HAD to produce a alternative which the sierra club didn't think they could , they figured it would destroy the market because the machines would skyrocket in price . It backfired and 4 pokes took off . You wonder why there are still 2 stroke sleds screaming around the snow packed trails of the sierra nevads and wyoming and yadda yadda yadda , cause 2 stroke sldes rock and rich guys ( even sierra club yahoo's ) still wanna have their cake and eat it too . Environmentalists were so bent outta shape that people were having fun riding out in the middle of nowhere and making noise that they really couldn't hear anyways . BUT the duck watchers and the whale watchers and the hikers and bikers all thought they were more important than the atv'rs . so they screamed and yelled and bitched and used the examples of people being injured on them and the people who leave trash behind in the woods while riding and furthered the laws that prevent us from enjoying the country OUR way . People complained about noise " we walked out to the glamis dunes to have a family pic nik in the middle of nowhere and were disturbed by NOISE!!!!!! " get the hell over yourself . They use excuses like environmental impact to prevent us from enjoying places THEY NEVER GO TO. 1 trans continental flight pukes more hydrocarbons into the upper atmosphere on a single trip than a thousand 2 strokes will if they are run every week-end for an entire year .
It was always a political battle , EPA , being driven by lobbyists who were collecting big money from wealthy sierra club charters .

 

[99LRDblaster]

I would not call flying under that bridge "sustained". Remember that a dry sump system uses a pressurized accumulator so oil pressure can be maintained for a certain amount of time even while the oil isn't falling back down to the sump but eventually all of the oil pressure will be lost and the bearings and crank will meet violently. The secret to that type of flying is the length of time it's upside down. The oil pump in a dry sump system can pump 3 times the volume the engine requires to maintain an oil film so it keeps the sump "dry". As the oil no longer falls into the sump, the pump runs dry but the accumulator keeps the pressure up for a time. Once the engine turns back over, the pump can once again pump of the volume in the accumulator and keep the engine from flying apart.

I've seen them at air shows fly inverted for a good minute or so. They have no problems doing it either. I'll have to look into it....they may have something different.

 

[99LRDblaster]

Banshee's are still sold around the world . The EPA ( in the sack with the Sierra club which is packed with lobbyists ) sent the manufacturers a threat that unless they lower noise and lower emissions they were going to ban atv's on public land outright . The atv makers HAD to produce a alternative which the sierra club didn't think they could , they figured it would destroy the market because the machines would skyrocket in price . It backfired and 4 pokes took off . You wonder why there are still 2 stroke sleds screaming around the snow packed trails of the sierra nevads and wyoming and yadda yadda yadda , cause 2 stroke sldes rock and rich guys ( even sierra club yahoo's ) still wanna have their cake and eat it too . Environmentalists were so bent outta shape that people were having fun riding out in the middle of nowhere and making noise that they really couldn't hear anyways . BUT the duck watchers and the whale watchers and the hikers and bikers all thought they were more important than the atv'rs . so they screamed and yelled and bitched and used the examples of people being injured on them and the people who leave trash behind in the woods while riding and furthered the laws that prevent us from enjoying the country OUR way . People complained about noise " we walked out to the glamis dunes to have a family pic nik in the middle of nowhere and were disturbed by NOISE!!!!!! " get the hell over yourself . They use excuses like environmental impact to prevent us from enjoying places THEY NEVER GO TO. 1 trans continental flight pukes more hydrocarbons into the upper atmosphere on a single trip than a thousand 2 strokes will if they are run every week-end for an entire year .
It was always a political battle , EPA , being driven by lobbyists who were collecting big money from wealthy sierra club charters .

I find it hard to believe the noise aspect considering the 4 strokes are louder and the deeper bass of their sound travels farther.

4 strokes are more environmentally friendly because they are more efficient in air/fuel combustion than a 2 stroke will ever be. This ultimately leads to less emissions and less petrol usage........which is exactly what the EPA is all about. I have no problems with it. They are right and modern 4 strokes are just that......efficient. You will see the same thing with the next gen cars this decade meeting the new government fuel standards. Some hate it.......I personally find it to be interesting and exciting to see the emergence of modern technologies being utilized to improve performance while decreasing emissions.

How about 92mpg?

 

[sicivicdude]

You wonder why there are still 2 stroke sleds screaming around the snow packed trails of the sierra nevads and wyoming and yadda yadda yadda , cause 2 stroke sldes rock and rich guys ( even sierra club yahoo's ) still wanna have their cake and eat it too .

The rules governing emmisions haven't got there yet. As the rate of pollution per vehicle in the ATV sector falls, other sources will start to be considered as larger portions of the total human impact. Once snowmobiles become a large enough portion of the total impact, their manufacturers will be "sent the letter".

1 trans continental flight pukes more hydrocarbons into the upper atmosphere on a single trip than a thousand 2 strokes will if they are run every week-end for an entire year .

That statement is simply not true. While I will agree that turbine jet engines are particularly dirty, 2 strokes are WAY dirtier. Not only that, but the 2 stroke creates localized pollution which won't degrade into the background NEARLY as fast. Pollution in the upper atmosphere reacts MUCH faster than pollution on the ground.

It was always a political battle , EPA , being driven by lobbyists who were collecting big money from wealthy sierra club charters .

The entirety of EPA's FY budget is appropriated by congress. Congress is lobbied, maybe... but EPA isn't paid by lobbyist.

I don't know if you've got kids or ever plan on having any... but I always hear talk of leaving our children "better off" and yet the actions each generation take put that farther from reality. Do you really think there will be anything left in a few hundred years at the rate we're going? Will there be anything worth having left in a few hundred years at the rate we're going?

Something has got to give. Either give a little now, or a bunch later. Ever read the book Silent Spring?

 

[99LRDblaster]

I don't know if you've got kids or ever plan on having any... but I always hear talk of leaving our children "better off" and yet the actions each generation take put that farther from reality. Do you really think there will be anything left in a few hundred years at the rate we're going? Will there be anything worth having left in a few hundred years at the rate we're going?

Something has got to give. Either give a little now, or a bunch later. Ever read the book Silent Spring?

Touche. I'm moving out the US in the coming anyways, so I couldn't quite frankly care less about the US, but the americans ingest oil at an alarming rate whether it translates into pollution or the economic cost of doing so. Why the US doesn't endorse more hydro electric, wind turbines, and solar energy. I keep hearing how they do, yet see very little in results. 8-|

I could just about bitchslap all the idiots that simply say "Well screw dem muslims and we should dun der drill our own oil, nuke em, and we will all be all good YEEHAWWW".

Level of education: 2nd grade dropouts